Steve Chase, Vice Chair of AI and Digital Innovation at KPMG shares practical strategies for integrating AI into enterprises. The discussion covers overcoming adoption challenges, implementing agents effectively, and driving AI-led transformation through strong leadership. Discover actionable steps to deliver value and prepare for the future of AI.
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Hello friends excited to do an interview Show today departing from our normal Format Steve Chase is someone I've Gotten to know over the last year he is Deep in the AI space his role is Technically the vice chair of kpmg's Artificial intelligence and digital Innovation organization which as they Describe involves leading a firmwide Initiative to integrate AI into every Aspect of the business and what I've Seen and what makes Steve have a Particularly interesting and unique Perspective is that not only is he Thinking about how AI helps KPMG do Their jobs better because of kpmg's role As a professional services company that Works with clients who are also thinking About their own AI Transformations he Almost gets to have a second perspective On the AI transformation as well that's Informed by all those customers and Conversations Steve's background is on The Consulting side as well having Previously led kpmg's us Consulting Practice we talk a lot in this Conversation about Lessons Learned From 2024 the state of play for big Enterprises in Ai and of course quite a Bit about agents It's a great conversation so without any Further Ado let's dive in all right Steve welcome to the AI Daily Brief how Are you doing I'm I'm doing great I'm
Excited to be here yeah happy 2025 lot Lots of great stuff to talk about uh you Know I'm sure we're going to run up Against time very quickly but um for for Background context for people who aren't Familiar I gave I gave a little bit of An intro uh to you before but just you Know tell us a little bit about your Your role at KPMG what you know kind of The landscape or or how that helps you Kind of understand the landscape as we Dig into the conversation yeah so my Title is the vice chair of AI and Digital Innovation and I've had a lot of Different jobs at KPMG really love this Particular one at this particular moment Um my job is to think about AI um and Other digital transformation or other Digital capabilities that can lead to Transformation both of our business and Our client's business and help navigate That Journey that we're going through to Take advantage of these uh new Innovations at scale and at PACE yeah so One one of the things that I think makes Your perspective extra valuable here is It's almost like a two for one because You're thinking about AI Innovation Transformation in the context both of This big large company that you're Working with as well as the plethora of Clients that that company has to go Serve which is a little bit of a Different you know stance than than I
Think a lot of folks who just have one Of those perspectives yeah I mean listen I think that it's partly because Professional Services firms are um you Know have a lot of opportunity with this Technologies so a lot of our clients are Also interested in our journey I Wouldn't say they've always beened Ed in What we're doing internally but they're Really interested right now because you Know we we we are as we say we're Heavily uh heavily impacted by the Opportunity both potentially positively And potentially negatively we're Certainly seen we're certainly seen that So so then as others are thinking about Framing their Journey they're very Interested in how we're doing our Journey as well so that's just been it's Been very symbiotic in that way yeah This is great so I I think most of our Conversations is going to be very Forward-looking but we're still in January I think it's a good chance to Kind of broadly catch up a little bit You know overall what were your biggest Learnings around AI whether it's in the Context of the Enterprise or just Generative AI more broadly uh last year And you know maybe maybe to get refined Is there anything that you thought about Generative AI coming into 2024 that Didn't play out the way that you had Imagined I'll give you a market
Perspective I actually thought there was Going to be More uh regulatory response some more Court cases and other things that didn't Happen last year we were sort of Expecting uh the emergence of some type Of AI certifications or other things That just um more in the Enterprise you Know I'm going to be more in the Enterprise space but like Enterprise Would be asking for that or uh or what Not that just really it wasn't something That we had seen um on a like a little Bit more sort of like something I Experienced I you know I always say we We're giving access to supercomputers On people's desktops and I've been Surprised even though it's it's Something that we've been we're talking About right in the beginning about how Hard people change is I've been Surprised by the resistance to like People picking that up and just Immediately gravitating to using it and So you know it's like it seems so Self-evident um and yet um there's There's there resistance in there and so Kind of leads you to that narrative Around Enterprise AI is adoption is Really challenging right it's really Challenging in topic yeah it's Fascinating I mean you know this is Something that you and I have talked About in the past and and obviously we
Think about a lot I I think that the to The extent that there's a positive with It I think that it's a great reminder That as fast as the technology is moving There is a certain amount of Human Social and organizational inertia that That gives us a little bit of a chance To catch our breath and adjust that's The upside the upside of of of what's Challenging for for a lot of folks who Are trying to drive you know adoption of New opportunity with this technology Yeah absolutely absolutely it's Interesting also that um the number one Request you hear from users in in our Client work and what have you is it Needs to show up where I am like like it Needs to show up in my workflow and it's Funny because one of the things I Probably the first presentation I gave On this topic was about how effective This was in sealing up gaps in between Workflows right like it's just so useful As a thought partner and what have you And and to work on things where we Haven't built systems so it's funny it's A funny thing about like well you know Emerging in my workflow yeah so this Actually you you segue great perfectly Into a set of questions that I had Around kind of the state of AI adoption In general yeah you know what are what Are some of the biggest and most common Challenges that you remain obviously
We're talking about this this you know Just the adoption itself utilization but But is there anything beyond that that That you guys see or encounter Frequently that that you know is holding Things back or just you know is is a is A challenge that that you know a lot of Organizations are Facing well um there's a so there's a Long list of those things right I mean I Suppose you'd expect a uh consultant to Say say that anyway but um here's a Couple of here's a couple that that jump To the top right Is um the technology moves so much Faster than people are moving that Anything that somebody believed about it You know especially if they St they T They you know they started out with it And then um oh no I didn't really do That much well six months later it's so Much better you know keeping up with That and people well you know they just They don't they just don't move as fast As the as the tech does there's one There's that's one two um you know most You you you inherit everything that's Great and everything that was on your To-do list in these programs your this Is Enterprise transformation right it Affects every part of the organization From the from the front office where you Support customers all the way through The back office where do your accounting
And whatnot and the operations in Between and so when you do Enterprise Transformation you it's everything You're good at maybe you wish you were Better at um and one of the things a lot Of companies wish they were better at is Data Knowledge Management what have you And and AI is is is great is you know It's really valuable um um out of the Box but it gets a lot more valuable as We start to get your data into it and What have you and you know how many the Then understanding the data data use the Availability access most people are Managing their data managing they have It they have it uh reasonably well Managed but not available to the AF Um and then you know I think that uh um We're talking about a new function Around responsible use that needs to be Very flexible that helps create guard Rails around um what I'm going to do why I'm going to do it how I'm going to do It I I think that most organizations That that for them is legal and risk but Not opportunity and like you know I so There's just a mind shift change uh Nathaniel when you think about like like How am I going to think about ethical Security like the whole range of these Things and design it into the program That I'm doing so that because because One of the I mean I'm just GNA to finish On one of the number one things people
Just are are not always sure what They're allowed to do even when you tell Them I want you to work on this and you Know I think sometimes it's because of The the mixed messaging that comes up in Terms of of the the kind of training They get or what have you around data Privacy and other things are super Important issues that need to be uh need To be netted through those are the Things that need to like those are the Guard rails that need to let you go Faster not speed bumps that try to slow You completely down yeah I think so I Completely agree in fact I have long Thought early last year um there was That interesting Microsoft uh uh uh LinkedIn study that found huge portion Of people that were using AI weren't Telling their companies about it yeah Right and to me my my speculation and They they had some some data analysis Around this but but my thought was that Probably a big portion of that was People who are exactly in the situation That you just described where they just Weren't quite sure what they were and Weren't allowed to do and once you use These tools boy you do not want to go Back to to the old way that you did Things and I think a lot of people Probably just you they were trying to do It in good faith but they weren't sure How to do it and they just didn't want
To be told that they weren't allowed to I think we maybe made some progress on That front but it's still a big issue I Know you quoted our um the poll survey That we did like the last quarter um you Know you highlighted that point I think You highlighted that point which is is That the perception of leadership of the People who were interviewed um for our Poll survey said that they you know that The executives were the main users of AI In their organizations and that's not um Take on it our take on it is is and and All you know when we instrument the Systems the the demographically the the More recent hires the younger org you Know younger folks in the organization Tend to be the ones that are actually um The bigger users so anyway that's that's Uh but maybe not talking about it right Yeah even in organizations where where You where you've said I want you to do This um you have to keep like hammering The message and hammering the message Um because you know schools are really Struggling with this like well AI is Cheating and I know you you quote Professor Ethan mik a lot uh talking About like well you know school can be Better with AI in it but and and so we But but yet there's like kids are per Petrified to use AI school right and Then we get our our interns come to KPMG Coming out of college and they're like
They're they're not really prepared Right now they're coming there're like Wait a second I'm told that this is Cheating at school and you're telling me We can't be successful if you don't use It um it's just an interesting uh Interesting dichotomy it's just like in That that dislocation that this period That we're in right now yeah it's it's a Very very Lial period and those are Historically the the hardest for people To deal with those inet yeah so this Gets me to another question and and There may be no real answer for this but Is there you know two a little over two Years now from the starting gun on gen With the with the launch of Chad Gbt is there a normal now is that you Know the the average place that an Organization that you see is is there Table stakes in terms of where people Are in the client Journey or is it still So broadly distributed that it's hard to Hard to pin that down well I think it's It's like with most um most most Innovation and change we're beginning to Separate into a group of Leaders um maybe fast followers and Laggards um and where there were very Few in the leader category you know ones Who were moved past And may put a little definition around That like so ones that have an actual Strategy they've they've put leadership
In place they've um defined the program And its set of goals and outcomes that They're looking for you know I and have moved into Scaling um I think that uh so I think There's there's starting to become some Norms there but you I'm surprised in the Same way that I am around adoption when You share with uh someone this Supercomputer I'm surprised by the Company saying yeah we're we're not Doing anything with that right now and And the reasons they give are often Regulatory um and and and future Regulatory issues and stuff and I I Really think with the EU AI act and um Some of the some of the things around Nist and whatnot I just I think we have Enough Clarity on what what to do that You can't let that be an inhibitor to Move forward so table Stakes for a Normal organization ubiquity access to One or more um AI capabilities um in the Form of you know some some type of Foundation model Access um something that is um you know I would say a number of them beginning To move or look at U the addition of Co-pilots or co-pilot like you know Personal augmentation and then uh the Emergence of rag solutions for you know Some type of talk to your documents or Uh now we we call knowledge assistants Um that are that are serving the single
Purpose that's what that's that's table Stakes what is you know the major you Know what's beginning to happen now is Well you saw like a number of of folks Beginning to experiment with agents or Agentic Capability um is starting to get on the You know on the other end of that but Listen we're so early in the table Stakes part of it in terms like the Amount of that like is is there a sense That they've gotten to the end of it no It's like all very much the beginning It's not ubiquitous across everywhere The so that's my take on it in the f I Suspect that that's consistent with what I've heard you talking about as well Absolutely yeah I think that's the case Another way to frame it is I definitely Think that there are starting to be Leaders average and and sort of people Who are a little bit behind but I think We're we're very early such that that Could shift very quickly given given Where the table Stakes are given how Emerging things are and I think that you Know jumping ahead maybe to agents a Little bit which will probably be a big Part of our conversation agents are Almost a great equalizing force on that Again because there's you know even the Organizations that feel like they've Done really hard work over the last two Years to wrap their head around this the
Co-pilot era and build systems and start To think about their data which as you Pointed out I was thinking about as you Were talking the the survey that you Guys put out uh last week 85% of people Said that data was their biggest issue That's very clearly something that's on People's minds but even those folks who Are thinking at that level they still The vast majority of people have not Even piloted an agent to say nothing of Deploying one and so there's a moment Now and I think that this is a real Opportunity for a lot of organizations That have perhaps felt behind to jump in With both feet to to you know really Start figuring this out before we move Off to this point though I just want to Reflect something you say a lot but but That we believe as well is you know that Idea of of leaders and average and Laggards let's as we use that that Phrasing um the There's a period of awareness and Cultural change and training and Training people to be different kinds of Leaders and different kind like that Work you're going to do at some point in Your journey and there's no it's a no Regrets move to get started on that ASAP Right I mean that is that is clear the Other thing is is this get a mindset That this is transforming your business That you have to be thinking about your
Processes differently and I think the Last time we probably did work like that Maybe a lot of the leaders weren't even In the workforce you know it was like Late 90s we were last really thinking About rewiring the Enterprise like this Into a business model that didn't exist Most of the stuff after that you know Built on that concept but it took us What 10 years around that you know um so And we're trying to do that all much Faster so I just there's some no regrets Moves In Here improving data getting the Training and stuff rolling even if you Believe agents well agents are going to And I do believe this agents will Actually be adopted at a faster rate and What have you um for the employees that Aren't agent that aren't you know for The for the work that they're doing Where they're not working with agents The all this AI work will still have Been this generative AI will still be an Incredibly useful thought partner and um And and Incredibly useful part of that That that that enablement of the Workforce in the future as well so no Regets moves there yeah I mean I think That that's a a a positive thing just to To really double click on there's very Low downside to almost everything that Organizations could be doing trying Experimenting with right now relative to Where the organization needs to be in 5
10 years y let's talk about agents so is 2025 let's start start broad is 2025 the Year of Agents how how do you think About this okay um if if what we were Talking about with generative AI was Still early Innings we are starting the Game right on agents um agents will be I think it agents will be the dominant Topic for the next 18 months there'll Probably be a hype cycle around it where Folks you know go through like it's way Overhyped right now uh for what it's Going to deliver this year in 2 would be My guess but it um will begin to but you Know and then it'll go through that Period um it's probably underhyped how Big of a change this is really going to Be in the Enterprise would be my Suspicion um I think that this is going To be easier to adopt than other Technologies in the in the AI space like It's going to be easier to adopt in Generative AI because it's going to Materialize right in the workflows um And or as a teammate that sits beside it So anyway yes I think it's the year of The agent I don't think it's the last Year of the agent um and I think you Know we'll definitely start to see those Counterfactuals like reports oh agents Were overblown I suspect that'll be my Prediction for 2025 is um in the in October time frame someone's going to be Start writing the uh agents for
Overblown article yeah it's interesting Though so one of the one of the more Interesting stats that I saw towards the End of last year came from this Menlow Enterprise report and um it was about The the shift in buy versus build Behavior and so they found that in 23 The the organizations that they surveyed It was 80 by 20 build in terms of the The gen solutions they deployed where Last year it was 5347 so almost half and Half so still slightly more buying than Building and I think that part of what It reflected was increase in confidence Uh plus a a recognition as they dove in That there were certain types of Applications you know maybe vertical Applications applications that Ed their Specific data or that were specific to Their you know their industry that just Weren't available yet I think it's going To Boomerang and now we're seeing all of Those sort of vertical Solutions start To start to come on yeah and the thing That I wonder as relates to that Question of of overhyped I think it's Almost inevitable I think it's it's Probably hard to deny but at the same Time I do think that for a for an inning Zero type of situation the Enterprises That are going into this are a lot more Sophisticated than they have been in the Past at inning zero in terms of you know The the where where they get and so it
May be that the just the deployments and The experiments are more modest and it's Just that they find when they dig in That they actually can't be as hyped as They as they had hoped for here's one of The reasons why I think I but here's any Here's a reason why I m i entirely agree With that point I know I just claimed The overhype but but like is so much Hype that it's it's kind of inevitable That someone write that article right But what's different here is the Emergence of Agents inside the Enterprise platforms we were always Talking about 2025 was going to be the Year AI began to materialized in the Enterprise software and they've been Working diligently to do that and that's Now taken the form of Agents right so That's like that seems to be the Dominant way that they're thinking about That that'll that'll Materialize and because of the Investments others have made in Cloud uh Or SAS based systems and what have you It makes it a lot easier to adopt these Things right and so um I think that'll Be very compelling to it departments I Know a lot of the clients we're talking To that's like this is this part of AI Is not complex for them to think about And understand they they they get it They get why it's going to matter I Don't think that everybody's fully
Understood like I don't think there's as Much s like I don't think people because They haven't really had experience them Yet this idea that they were going to be Teammates and how they're going to get Invoked and they're going to work and That's going to require training about Like how you work with them and work Effectively with them there's a whole Management layer that I think is Interesting I don't think that's Actually going to happen in it it's Going to happen somewhere else in the Organization but But anyway I think it'll be easier the Enterprise side will be easier um those Are the people that or those are the Capabilities that materialize in the Platforms and then there's the you Talked about like the Enterprise wides Or the vertical agents that are going to Materialize that that work on the Platforms right like that work across The platforms I think those will be Later like I don't I don't think those Will be coming in scale and especially Where autonomy comes in you know uh so We're really focused this year on on On the Enterprise agents as as part of It but also you need to be making your Experiments in orchestration and um um And the outside the system agents as Well because those will be really useful Too and there's a lot of third parties
That are offering these you know you Guys and I think in one of the last Podcasts I listened to uh you um you Guys were talking about Cai and there's A variety of those like that um that That seem like they're uh providing Pretty good uh insight into like where Things are headed yeah what's Interesting too one of the one of the Things that is fascinating about this Generation of agent companies is I think They have an appreciation for you know One of the things that you said which I I also very strongly agree with is Underestimating in the long run just how Different the how how disruptive how Much they're going to change the shape Of organizations you see a little bit of A hint of this in that the way that this Software is being deployed inside Companies is uh these these these Startups are all basically deploying Engineers kind of paler style from a Decade ago where they're sitting with You know inside companies doing this Stuff it's it's so different than you Know pointand click kind of software That we've had in the past which I think You know is is reflection of just how How big the the change might be yeah It's interesting right and so um uh how Systems integrators or Business Consultants interface with that as well And like come into that ecos because if
If it's only that they can deploy um Which seems to be which has been part of The model in the beginning than the Scale which is it can't it can't scale Fast enough right and so so that's why We're having those conversations and and And talking about and then of course you Know we we develop those same sort of Capabilities in our own platforms like Like in our tax platforms and what have You and so um trying to learn that Lesson too about how we bring that um Effectively into those departments has Been really uh been really useful as Well on the idea that um that of of just The magnitude of the disruption I don't Know if you caught this but in his CES Keynote uh Invidia CEO Jensen he he said That it is it is the new HR department For for agents which I thought was a Fascinating way of obviously a little Bit provocative just to get people Talking but a really fascinating way to Think about agents as a a new a new Portion of your Workforce are these you Have digital workers now and you have Human workers and you have a a Combination where they'll meet That that's just you know it's a totally New management structure on top of just A totally new technology structure yeah And I farbe it for me to disagree with Jensen how all I would say is is that It's not entirely obvious to me that it
Is the right Landing zone for that right I mean what in fact we've been having a Lot of conversation with HR departments That you know just like you manage Contractors employees and other labor Why wouldn't the HR systems and the HR Processes actually be really well tuned To the agent uh space which where Because I need to onboard them I need to Train them I need to uh I need to think About their performance I need to give Them performance reviews I probably need Some type of management technique over Top of them that may be different um so You could argue that that um actually The HR systems themselves are well Constructed to think about all the Different things that I need to go do With agents um so but I think it'll be Fascinating to watch how this uh how This works right yeah no I I I I think About this a lot and I I do think one of The sneaky second order effects of of AI And and will be extended with agents are Certain parts of the organization having Even more significance attached to them Because of this new set of skills they Need to develop so HR actually evolving The capability to manage agents and help Individuals manage agents because a very Different proposition that that's really Valuable I think about this with L &d as Well you know Learning and Development For you know organizations are all
Different but some organizations kind of Treat it as this it's basically a perk Right it's a thing where they're Investing in their people being you know Better in the future and so go off and Do your thing I think L &d is up you Know increasing in importance as these Skills are now really Mission critical To the organization in an immediate time Scale and I think that it's reflective Just of of the sort of broad management Changes that that these Technologies are Are bringing with them so um one of the Things I was thinking when I was Listening to that speech was if you Extend that um it has the potential to Be like everything in the the whole Organization becomes it and at that Point you still got to organize it right Like so so um I so I think that that That if it becomes everything then it be Says well but what does the what is what Do we actually fundamentally do in HR What do we fundamentally do in these Operational T anyway so that's kind of How I was thinking I was receiving that Anyway yeah yeah absolutely so the the Other thing one thing that we have Noticed uh sort of along these lines is The analogy of agent as an employee even If it ends up being the wrong heris in The long run is very useful for helping People think about it in in the in a way That's it's not just another piece of
Software right so the idea of agent Hiring it's like okay well what are the Tasks that I would hire someone for what Are the the the you know what are the Qualifications that I'm looking for in That person what makes a good candidate Versus a bad candidate what is the Infrastructure I need to put around them To help them be successful these are all The questions that people need to be Asking as it as it relates to agents uh They're just you know in a to totally Different light than perhaps theyve Thought about them in the past yeah and In fact um I think I mentioned before That to you but that um you know we took A minority investment in a company Called Emma um and their CEO surit is is Really he's before people were using the Phrase agent in the way they are now he Was talking about synthetic employees It's what we were really uh this it's It's what we were really interested in Because that is that that phase when we Get to that phase the idea of a Synthetic um uh set of capabilities that That can do a whole set of functions That look more like an like a job that's A really interesting period we're Getting to right there's a whole set of Things need to be think that's a real Mind shift change um and and I do think It's quite elucidating to think about it That way and you know there's another
Another company we work with called Auditoria they've been talking about Teammates for a while and actually Really changes your thinking between That and what a co-pilot is intended to Do which is around an individual right And so anyway I just really uh I I agree With you I I suppose I get I agree with The point you're making that that Heuristic is is useful as you start to Think about like how am I going to make Progress here yeah in terms of in terms Of trying to help people maybe navigate So that they don't find at the end of This year that they're frustrated with How overhyped agents were what do you What do do you have a perspective on Either a what type or category of agents Are more ready for more or less ready For prime time and B what how people Should be thinking about piloting or Experimentation or or testing is there a Proper scope is there a you know a Framework that you think about anything That would help people guide to you know Doing the right taking the right steps Without trying to go too far too fast Yeah it's a really good question and Probably takes a little while to unwind But start with I think agents benefit Mentally from thinking about it a bit From like like the way we have digital Transformation at least in this first uh This first duration so we talked about
The emergence of AI inside Enterprise Platforms I think that's you know Enterprise platforms cover everything From the front to the middle to the back Office so I think there those tend to be A little bit I'm not going to say They're lower risk they are but they They seem more straight forward in terms Of how that's going to happen the Deployment mechanism because it's inside Your plat your SAS platform or whatever You I feel like it's a little more Straightforward and then so so that's a Good place to be evaluating opportunity Against U technology decisions you've Already made and and business decisions You've already made um you're already Using those things so it's it's it's Clear you if you go back to our adoption Conversation it's going to materialize Where the people already are um so I Think that's that's part of and Then um as you think into the future It's going to completely change the Interaction layer and so I think Starting to get your head around like Like the employee experience and what The interaction layer is going to look Like that's a really important piece of It as well so so those two points and Then when you get into operations it's The biggest front front office and Operations are the biggest opportunity Area this where you can really change
The dimensionality of your business Right in terms of how you serve your Customers how you build your product What have You there my take on it Is um the No Regret move is starting to Think through work groups like what work Groups where is work done and to the Extent you've got a work group uh that Does something or consistent set of Individuals doing things regularly then I think that's a really good place to be Thinking about one of those works on the System not in the doesn't emerge in the System necessarily an example of that Might be um a like almost like a QA um Agent that's sitting on top of drug Prescription Um you know in the in the operating room Or what have you and sees like oh I'm Asking for this drug and like the amount And actually is like um uh you know it's Easy it it's not easy but it's already Done where that would be looking to say Hey is that the right amount but Actually you know um doing the research On the drug what the you know and the Follow on and other things like that Just an example um of something or you Know on a more mundane level um I I've Got um a retail Uh I got I've got a retail brand that's Looking at like um store performance and U they've got a store performance
Workout thing that they can do there's a Variety of different capabilities that's Kind of a good thing to build an a Potentially build an agent around if It's value added so I guess I'm I'm Suggesting to You um early is going to be in these Enterprise work groups a lot of pilots In the operations especially where There's a concentration of similar Workers doing something yeah I I think This this reflects sort of how we're Thinking about it and what we're seeing As well the the big opportunity that I Think has people so excited is Agents Actually being able to do complex you Know multi-tiered workflows and you know Big big sets of of projects all on their Own at this stage it it's sort of it's Fairly close to an automation process Around specific tasks where I think a Lot of the value is going to be realized In the short term and it still gives you That sense of or that the the ability to Start testing it so we think there's Going to be a lot of Pilots around Financial analysis because so much of The the the that analysis is like the Same type of analysis just with Different data sets inputed you know Over and over again similar with with Build processes right you can you know Segment very specific parts of the Developer process that get repeated over
And over again um you know there will be Again if you if you kind of look at how Where entrepreneurs are with what They're trying to build with agents it's Very clear that they're still trying to Solve a lot of the problems that are Going to be required before we get to Things like multi-agent workflows and You know more more complex uh Endeavors But if you have that mindset I those Those um task Oriented um uh agents will eventually be Uh SCA those will be the ones that scale Up to be more like sort of um Enterprise Automation things and eventually will be Uh knitted together with orchestration To construct the synthetic employees Right like the Synthetic um um the synthetic employees Will actually be made up of those other Investments likely right orchestrating Across them with goals and objectives That are much more complex I think There's a there's a famous saying um um That that all complex systems started All effective complex systems started Out as simple systems right that that's The way that they and then as they being Begin to be put together that's how you Construct a complex system system it's Really difficult to build a complex System out of the box I think that's a Right way to think about agents do you Think that the excitement SL hype around
Agents runs the risk of sucking the Oxygen out of the room for high value Use cases or opportunities for geni that Could get kind of shunted to the side as People go after the shiny new thing I 100% I mean we we I believe that that is Not only a risk I think it's happening Because because there's a burgeoning Question around Roi right what is the ROI what's the value I've got in this This is a pretty direct path to Near-term this a more direct path Towards near-term Roi I think um in it And um so I worry that you know Everybody's got limited budgets how much Of my budget am I giving to different Things um I've made exactly the same the Same point both internally and with Clients is Agents will be absolutely Ely Something that we're going to be great At both in the use deployment what have You of them um and integrating them into The into the work that we do everywhere We do it and um for for the things that We don't do agents with so the Augmentation the the the um the creative Partner the individual AI that we that You need to be great at and I need to be Great at using that we're going to Continue to invest in that too so but I Do think there's a real risk that people Would say well we'll get to that later And actually I think that that is there We you know if a process isn't
Digitized it's going to it's it's hard To think about the you know then then You got work to do and it's going to Take longer to get agents in there and Yet I can use generative AI today on That immediately if I'm good you know if I think if I have that mindset but we Need to have people trained to have that Mindset yeah I I completely agree I Think one of the big questions over the Next half decade to decade is going to Be what what is human AI enabled work What is Agent work and where do they Blend and and hybridize and it's going To take a lot of experiments to figure That out I also think that the ROI is is The the ease of Roi with agents is Exactly why this is sort of going to be Such a such a challenge you know if you Think about Roi this is obviously Radically reductive but it's either Cheaper work more work or better work Well agents the promise is cheaper work Right if they if they work at a task They do it you know for for less than The equivalent human labor and that's Just a very clear starting point now of Course that doesn't answer the question Of how you reinvest that time and that's That's a whole separate thing but then You get to you know more work it's like Well in many organizations more work Would be great but they're not even sure How to handle more work yet because that
Involves thinking about re Reorganization and so that's sort of a More complicated uh you know typ type of Roi to try to figure out because it Involves some amount of you know Replanning better work is the hardest Because it's the most wish you it's the Hardest to kind of wrap your heads Around but so much of generative AI Right now the the output is better work Right we we find this all the time the Amount of the the use case of Brainstorming where you know every time You're thinking through a new marketing Campaign every time you're thinking Through a new slogan every time you're Thinking through you know how you would Design a product you you chat with chat GPT about it because it's it's as a Thought partner it's just going to make Your work better but how do you turn That into Roi that's clear know it if You experience it but it's on an Organization scale that has to think on An organization scale it's a lot harder I just say this uh on the better work Side um I think that's one of the things In like in our survey you know a lot of The survey respondents were talking About Roi but they weren't necessarily Measuring um or achieving um that that Sort of Roi and I think they were Talking about productivity enhancements That drive to the bottom line I think in
A lot of the work that we're doing we're Seeing act we were absolutely seeing in Better work um Quality improvements Materially measurable quality Improvements and quality has an Incredible uh midterm effect on on Businesses obviously uh and then Pace Speed right the the the the ability to Turn around um things more quickly um And also we talked about this before but The the the capacity of your best Workers goes up one thing we didn't talk About on agents I just wanted to reflect On because it's it's it's a it's a no Regrets move it's a really important Topic and I don't hear as much Discussion of it although I do think It's holding up some of the some of the Move is people really understanding what The management framework not of that HR Thing we were talking about like how am I but but actually like what is my uh Ethical and responsible use guideline Around it I do think that's going to be A bigger issue as we get to more Autonomy right and more orchestrate but Like like and and synthetic employee but But that is a investment that should be Be made right now right like that is you Cannot I cannot um um overemphasize that Point that is that is that is and and Too too often that topic is sort of slid To the back backside right now I think An extension of that that I think about
A lot is there are at some point Management is going to have to in every Organization have some work approach to How they think about the replacement of Human labor with with agents and how it Relates to augmentation and how they Plan to reinvest the gains that they get Out of out of AI and I think that there Are there are lots of organizations out There who right now they got their their Organization together know that that's Something that they want to they want to Reinvest in because they want to go from The fourth biggest in their category to The first biggest and that's what They're going for they're not just Trying to to do things cheaper you know Or faster they they want to grow boy Does it benefit them by articulating That to employees who are very nervous About what this is going to mean for Them you know part of the the if we Think the adoption issue with assistance Is hard getting people to sort of sit Next to you know workers who could do a Bunch of stuff that they did before is Going to be even harder unless you know There's there's a really strong clear Communication around what the what the Long term looks like for them now I've Heard you talk about this before I don't Mean to interrupt you but I've heard you Talk about this before and I'm on record Having this opinion it's going to be
Dislocating the short run like and There's a lot of change management work And other things that need to be done But every technological revolution of This type has led to an explosion of job Growth right so so companies are bigger There's more employees there's more Employed I that that's our narrative is This is going to open up and Spark Growth in um both in the organizations And also the emergence of new companies And new new types many of which we you Know we we haven't scratched the surface On in terms of no even knowing what they What those things will be or what they Will look like um and and so so anyways That's that's that's our narrative Around it and I think it's kind of Consistent with your point about you Want to take share you want to grow we All have um we all had pre aai uh um a List of to-dos a set of of of Enterprise Imperatives that were way too long to Get to um if we can begin to get through Those what's the reinvest This this is what I tell senior Executive teams and the reinvest is Going to be into customers sales support Um product right I I mean I think that That's a pretty positive note to to Start to wrap up on is there any Anything else that we should make sure Make sure to hit before we get out of Here things that you're thinking about
Heading into next year well I mean you And I talk a lot about um talked a lot About adoption here um one of the things That I have seen I don't know whether You've seen it is um even for some of The companies that that that have would Say that this is absolutely going to be Transformative and um and it's going to Be something that uh that you know They're they're going to be making large Investments in uh often have not Articulated this as a business Transformation but they're they're They're articulated like a technology Program and and so as a consequence cios Have a tendency to be leading uh a lot Of those programs and cios are really Busy people um and and they have Incredible skill sets and they're some Of the best Business Leaders in the Business but one of the things that I Would suggest is a person regardless of Where they come from who can move the Organization be identified to really run This program because this is this is Like this is touching every part Enterprise transformation tends to be Best um when there's a clear guidance Not and Federated out through the Organization but co coales uh too many Places we're seeing um the the the poc's Aren't moving forward but they're They're stuck inside a bunch of Different places they've sort of limited
Impacting that place but who's drawing It forward and and being able to pull All those pieces together I think agents Will actually make it like it will drive Us more towards oh this is a technology Thing and I don't I think we we we've Well covered the fact that's actually Not what we're talking about we're Talking about a rewrite of how business Occurs a rethink of your ecosystem to Deliver the services both in the you Know like the where the digital labor is Going to come from how you build it Yourself how you where and and and I Think those are business topics that Need to be uh be raised up but it's a Movement a transformation movement that Needs to be led that's that's we we Didn't really quite hit that but I do Think there's something about the Construction of the program uh that Could be looked at sure I kind of Building on that so one of the things I Get asked by investors is you know it's A very standard question for for young Startups what's your ideal customer Profile right and usually that question Is asked in terms of either one what's The business unit or two is there a Particular industry that's that's the Right customer but what we find Ourselves kind of identifying given that This transformation is so wide it covers Every industry every type of business
Unit is for us what is ideal is a Certain composition or makeup in the Leadership around these questions and There's two characteristics that we find Pretty consistently of of organizations That are a good fit for uh for just you Know who who we think are ahead right in That leaders category that's emerging uh When it comes to AI transformation and The two things are one they have Somebody like set of bodies a a a group That is focused on this transformation Who is explicitly mandated to know how It relates to everyone right they don't Necessarily have to have huge budget but They have to have connection to every Single they need to know what legal Thinks of it they need to know what all The business unit heads think of it they They they need to be that sort of uh That that coordination layer across Everyone And the second piece is that that Organization has to have direct senior SE level leadership you know for that Goes right to the top of that so that They are you know whatever they don't Have in terms of ability to move Themselves if they're just more of a Coordination body there's a direct path To actual kind of business level change Uh and that we we see versions of that Over and over and over again even if It's composed a little bit differently
In every organization but the groups That have that are thriving the groups Where we talk to where it's you know Balkanized across you know there's a Little bit of an innovation person over Here in this one unit and a little bit Over here it just tends to be slower Yeah absolutely I mean we keep saying is Is the persons that are going to do this Are already really busy and you need you If you assess this as disruptive Transformative we need to take enough Off their plate so they can focus a lot Of Mind share on one of the most Interesting biggest problems that uh Companies are going to face um we're Again we're early in this so it's not Like it's a temporary program it's going To be going on for a while needs to be Well franchised you need to build this Muscle memory and and and you know my Version of of your first part of that Group is you need someone you need some Some ones who are going to lead a Movement in the organization right lead A movement because everyone needs to Play a part and you need a group that That is orchestrating it mindset shifts The the historically the easiest thing For big companies to to deal with yeah Right Um Steve awesome to have you on the show Uh great great conversation I think a Lot of I I mean somehow 2025 is poised
To be even more exciting than 2024 and 2023 were with AI so uh great to have You here and looking forward to talking More we're blessed to be doing this Right now um it's just such an Interesting time in uh in business so Thanks for having me on as well cheers